In a recent post on the Facebook Group, Intense Biblical Discussions, someone asked in response to those, like myself, who claim Joseph to be the biological father of Jesus, How do 2 imperfect people produce perfect offspring?
To which I responded, What is considered perfect offspring?
The poster’s initial response was, without sin..1 peter 2: 22.
My reply:
Consider the context…
“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:21-24)
Peter said Christ left an example that others should follow in his footsteps, and then immediately starts with “who did no sin”, with the expectation that others could follow in his footsteps by likewise doing no sin.
Peter is not claiming that Christ never sinned a day in his life — he couldn’t possibly have known that. However, during the time of Jesus’ public ministry as a grown man after his water baptism for the remission of sins, while Peter followed him, Peter could have seen that Jesus did no sin. As we all should do, upon our decision to be washed clean of our sins — to do no sin, going forward.
His response:
hebrews 4: 15..1 john 3: 5.. 2 corinthians 5: 21..if he was born in sin , when did he become perfect, as the posted scriptures claim…?
Let’s look at these passages.
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 4:14-16 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1 John 3:4-5 KJV
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV
Now, I would love to address each of these passages in their proper context, and may do so in the future, but for now, to stay on point, my reply to the exchange at hand was this:
Who wrote the letter to the Hebrews, the enumerated letters of John & the letters to the Corinthians, and did these authors know all the choices Jesus ever made in his lifetime? Do they know what he was like during his adolescence & early twenties — each and every choice he ever made? I daresay not.
They likely only knew of him from the time he became publicly known, sometime after his water baptism, which was for “the remission of sins”. (Matthew 3, Mark 1, Luke 3, John 1)
When did Jesus become “perfect”, you ask, within the context of sin? It appears to have been when he decided to become washed clean of all wrongdoings (aka sin), and proceeded to walk in righteousness, according to the Spirit of God.
This is something we all can do, despite who our parents are. We all can be made perfect — we can be perfected when we choose to do that which is right and reject that which is wrong.
An Example from Old
If it were impossible for imperfect people to produce a perfect offspring, then why would God have told Abram so long ago, himself, to be perfect?
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Genesis 17:1 KJV
And this was said after a lifetime of 99 years.
Many generations later, Moses proclaimed to the next generation of the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt, who were considered to be a corporate son of God, at the end of their 40-year journey in the wilderness, having been schooled in the ways of their Creator God…
When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
Deuteronomy 18:9-14 KJV
The expectation was that people could be made perfect in the midst of their life. They didn’t need to be physically born perfect. Rather, it was a personal choice to be perfect.
And in this second example, the choice came following a rescue mission from a place of bondage, and on the cusp of being ushered into a land of promise.
Further Examples
Later in the history of the children of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, King David said to his physical son, who was thought to be the spiritual Son of God…
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
1 Chronicles 28:9 KJV
And Solomon passed the following words, particularly relating to being perfect, on to the congregation of Israel at the dedication of the house, which he built for YHVH’s name, God, his Father:
And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven. And he stood, and blessed all the congregation of Israel with a loud voice, saying, Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant. The LORD our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let him not leave us, nor forsake us: That he may incline our hearts unto him, to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and his statutes, and his judgments, which he commanded our fathers.
1 Kings 8:54-61
And let these my words, wherewith I have made supplication before the LORD, be nigh unto the LORD our God day and night, that he maintain the cause of his servant, and the cause of his people Israel at all times, as the matter shall require: That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else. Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.
Solomon knew what was needed to be perfect with God — to walk in God’s statutes & to keep God’s commandments. And although in his latter years, Solomon personally strayed from God’s instruction, the expectation remained in the hearts & minds of men, that those who chose to be made perfect, could be.
Then, in the first century of the common era, Jesus/Yeshua, another physical son of David and proclaimed spiritual Son of God, spoke the following words to his disciples when he gave his sermon on the mount…
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
Jesus/Yeshua demonstrated what it was like to be perfect — to know no sin — from the time he was washed clean for the remission of sins until his physical dying day. He set before us an example as to how it can be done, despite our physical parentage.
We all, sons & daughters of men, can be perfect as well, when we choose to sin no more & walk in the ways of our heavenly Father, the Creator God.
Hello. do you believe that scripture is the inspired word of God?? Reading your posted responses to someone who obviously does, it would appear to me that you are questioning God’s WORD and not just the (inspired) written testimonies of chosen apostles etc.
Nothing wrong with questioning something in order to find the truth, but everything wrong with adding and twisting things to conform to a bias or new concept.
I believe that the Holy Spirit shows us the truth through our faith….we don’t have to assume things, nor to invent things that are not recorded/absent or omitted for God’s reasons…I am not talking about Apocrypha, obviously, but about complete text which,were more detail required,God would have inspired it to be written.
1 Tim chapters 1-6
With reference to Jesus’s sinless perfection:
Enough to say that ALL sacrificial animals (for sin/atonement purposes) were to be without any blemish or deformity etc (perfect) which by comparison regarding the Law,NO human could ever be because sin is carried through the BLOOD of the forefathers to every generation. Jesus’s Father was God (not Joseph) which meant that He was without sin,but allowed Himself to BECOME sin for us, in order to be our atonement sacrifice.
Mary was chosen to be the bearer of God’s Holy One, so she was special and evidently law abiding etc-but she was not without sin/perfect (only Jesus was perfect) because she was already born into sin through her parents blood.
Doubting that Jesus was without sin despite temptation in all forms prior to baptism (if I understand you correctly??) would make Him unfit to atone for our sin on the cross,and would render the whole concept of JOHN 3 V 16 (and our salvation through Him) void! By questioning Peter’s statement,you are questioning what God revealed to him-which was that Jesus was perfect and without sin, even before anyone, including Peter knew Him-because Jesus was in Mary’s womb when Elizabeth said “blessed art thou among women,and blessed (is) the fruit of thy womb” -His life was blessed from beginning to end even though He could have sinned, He remained obedient and from an early age was ‘going about His Father’s business’ which obviously pleased the Father (any sin would have disqualified Him from ‘perfection’).
I would humbly suggest that you are perhaps, more caught up in proving a theory (your theory that Jesus was Joseph’s biological son, and not God’s Spiritually/supernaturally conceived Son) instead of trusting the bible to interpret and prove itself when we ask the Father for revelation. I only say this because as a self confessed ‘perpetual bible student’ you appear to be unwilling to trust that the answers are all contained within the bible-or that it is inspired by God yet written by man (forgive me if I’m wrong,but that’s the impression I have at mo)
If we study Holy scripture without the Holy Spirit’s guidance, we will only see dimly,and will be prone to trusting in our own interpretations, adding or subtracting from it as needed to support our ‘beliefs’- something which the pharisees were chastised for and we are warned of.
May I ask if you believe in salvation through Jesus? – or did you leave that ‘concept’ behind when you left churchianity behind? I am genuinely interested to know if you believe in salvation through Jesus (or through any other means),and am not being argumentative (your statement of belief doesn’t seem to cover this as far as i could see?)
I do not usually comment and am not online often but I will try to check back now and then in case you respond.
Thankyou x
Hi Dee,
First, I’d like to apologize for taking so long to approve this comment — I didn’t realize it had even been made until tonight. Thank you for taking the time to express it.
When you said, “sin is carried through the BLOOD of the forefathers to every generation”, what is your scriptural basis for that notion?
It is my understanding that sin is an act, not a genetic trait.
When God made man in the beginning, He gave him the ability to not sin.
Even after Adam sinned, we see that mankind still had the ability to not sin. Cain, a direct offspring of Adam, is a prime example. (See Genesis 4:7) However, Cain did sin.
As far as I can see, one is considered a sinner by committing sin, not by simply being a human being.
Please understand, I am not declaring that Jesus/Yeshua *did* sin, I’m saying it is possible that he could have at some point in his life. Nonetheless, he was water baptized by John, whose baptism was “for the remission of sins”, and it was *after this* that the Voice from above declared Jesus to be His “son”.
As for being called a “son” of God, what does that mean?
According to 2 Samuel 7:14, it was prophesied to David that David’s physical son would be a “son” to God and that God would be a “father” to him. If Solomon was the fulfilment of that prophecy, does that mean Solomon was a *physical* son of God, or was he a *figurative* (or perhaps a spiritual) son?
Doesn’t it make sense for Jesus to be considered a “figurative” or “spiritual” son of God?
When Jesus taught his disciples to pray, “Our Father, which art in heaven…”, he acknowledged that his disciples had the same “Father, which art in heaven” as he had, and they were all begotten of men.
Regarding my assertions that Jesus is the physical son of David, by way of Joseph, it is not a theory. I am asserting what the Bible literally says.
Matthew 1 clearly lays out the physical “genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham”, and it is through Joseph.
Luke clearly identifies Joseph as the father of Jesus in chapters 1 & 2. And Mary refers to him as such in Luke 2:48.
John tells us Philip identified Jesus as the son of Joseph in chapter 1 verse 45, and then later in chapter 6 verse 42 the author says that there were Jews who recognized Jesus as being “the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know”.
Matthew, Mark & Luke all give accounts of Jesus being called the “son of David”, and Joseph is the parent who is identified in both Matthew & Luke as being of the house of David. Mary is alluded to being of the house of Aaron by Luke’s reference to her being kin to Elizabeth in Luke 1:36. (Elizabeth is clearly identified as being a daughter of Aaron in Luke 1:5.)
And then Paul identifies Jesus as being made of the seed of David according to the flesh in Romans 1:3.
So, I think the Bible is clear that Jesus is the physical son of Joseph. The question is, are we going to take that to heart when it comes to understanding all that is said about Jesus? What is the foundation of our belief concerning him? Is it what we think we understand Paul or anyone else might say concerning his ministry and purpose, or is it what the Bible actually says?